sky_bluepink: eating disorders in the anarchist community; i want a button maker and a storm

kkkkkatrina (

sky_bluepink) wrote,
@ 2007-10-23 21:45:00

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eating disorders in the anarchist community; i want a button maker and a storm
i would really like to get a button maker, hm. also a high wattage bulb because i couldnt get my photo emulsion to develop using a 60 watt bulb.
sleep is so wuuuunderful
and i hope we have a storm tonight!
also some things that have been on my mind:

lately two things have been brewing in my mind as to how they are accepted by the anarchist community, so i figured this would be a good place to open up discussion and see what everyone else thinks.

the first is eating disorders. eating disorders are typically seen as being perpetuated by the media and unnatainable standards for women, and these media outlets are pushed away by feminists and anarchists. i don't have an eating disorder thankfully, but i've realized that i haven't seen any networks for womyn (and men) in the anarchist community to be able to overcome. has your local community had any experience with eating disorders? do you have an eating disorder caucus? how do you see eating disorders figuring into the general fight against the media and expectations for womyn?

second topic on my mind: fashion, for lack of a better word, and the queer community. many male-to-female transgendered individuals turn to makeup and traditionally feminine clothing to demonstrate their true gender. in the attempt to get away from cosmetics that mask one's true appearance and also encourage womyn to appear more plastic than men, how do you see transgendered folk using these tools to demonstrate their femininity? is this positive? negative? how can we show our gender in less objectifying ways?

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thrives
2007-10-24 02:08 am UTC (link)

Are you using womyn seriously?

Eating disorders I do generally attribute to the media. They fuck up expectations for women, but America also has a huge problem with people who are so obese that it makes them sick. So really, what can we really say about whether anorexia or fried chicken is making women more unhealthy?

I really like to show my gender in the accepted ways sometimes, and other times subvert it by looking obviously male. The best, though? Just looking in-between. *shrug* I think conforming to gender norms (even if those be the gender norms of a gender that does not match your biological sex) only perpetuates them, and it bugs me because I HATE GENDER NORMS EXISTING IN THE FIRST PLACE.

But I can't really wrap my mind around trans-ness anymore, since gender is more socially constructed than anything else- so why, if that's the case, do they go through hormones and painful surgeries to try to emulate the other biological sex? That's not me being bigoted, it's jut that I'm getting to the point of questioning everything based on social construction because of my Sexuality in American History prof. I think biological causes for being trans exist; my prof thinks it's all socially constructed, but then insists that it's /true/ or...I dunno. I'm confusing myself.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

sky_bluepink
2007-10-24 02:25 am UTC (link)

as for what you said in the last paragraph, im not trans so i dont feel like i can speak for anyone that is but i definately agree with you on gender being a structure of society.

i go in and out of using womyn seriously, this is copied and pasted from an anarchist messageboard that i felt like it would be well recieved in. i wish there was a better word that didnt churn up so many negative connotations for people while still cutting out the misogynist trend of gender in language, but whatever

and im looking at this through the anarchist lense, which eschews corperations and corperate media in general, which is why i see issues like eating disorders not being fully discussed because of a supposed weakness to corperate media seeping into "alternative minds."

(Reply to this) (Parent)

lotuspedals
2007-10-24 03:25 am UTC (link)

eating disorders are certainly made worse by the media, but it's impossible to blame it entirely, or even the majority. first, because eating disorders have been around for centuries. they've never been as prevalent as they are now, but they have existed in various forms since at least the thirteenth century. any time you have women expected to look/act a certain way, you're going to have messed up ideas about food. on top of that, it's rarely about the actual desire to be thin - that's just how the compulsion manifests itself. eating disorders are about any number of things, the most obvious being perfectionism, control, fear and depression. people with serious eating disorders are not looking at magazines and saying, "i'm going to starve myself to look like this." they're getting this message from everywhere that they need to be perfect in every way, in control of everything, and anorexia is one form that it takes. obsessive compulsive disorder is another big one.

secondly, it's really important to understand that eating disorders aren't limited to anorexia. bulimia and compulsive overeating disorder are just as, if not more prevalent. they're obviously different and have different motivations from anorexia, because they're more about filling a void than they are about perfectionism. one thing that really scares me about the activist community is the way that sizism is still an acceptable form of oppression. people say things like, "some fat asshole in an suv almost ran me over on my bike today. probably too busy stuffing mcdonald's down their throat." and in a less abrasive form, your comment about fried chicken. yes, some people are obese because they're lazy consumers. but a lot are obese because they have serious emotional problems. i've suffered from depression since i was thirteen, and i was raised in a family where food represented love and comfort. that makes me a twenty-two year old obese woman, who is also an anti-capitalist anarchist vegetarian biker. i know that other activists look at me and think less of me because of my size. either because they still buy into society's beauty standards, or because they think i gorge myself on fast food and sit around on my ass, i don't know. all i know is that i already have a LOT of emotional isssues, and on top of that, i have to deal with confidence-killing assumptions from my own community, which is supposed to be open-minded, non-judgmental, and anti-oppression.

i don't mean to pick on you, and if it came off that way, i'm truly sorry. i'm just at a point where i really want to educate people on these things, because i know it'll never change otherwise. i'd suggest reading this article, i think it's wonderful.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

thrives
2007-10-24 01:14 pm UTC (link)

I'm more than aware that there's not just anorexia, my friend. And I'm quite aware that obesity isn't something to make fun of; the fried chicken comment referred to the availability of fatty foods. I don't judge, and I'm not stupid, thanks.

I also am not any kind of activist, but I don't look down on people for their weight. And you know what? Nothing anyone says can be confidence-killing unless you let it be.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

lotuspedals
2007-10-24 01:39 pm UTC (link)

I don't judge, and I'm not stupid, thanks.

calm down, i didn't say you were. the way you worded your comment seemed uninformed, so i was trying to be helpful.

Nothing anyone says can be confidence-killing unless you let it be.

i don't know you, so i can't make any judgments about you, but everyone i've heard say that before has spoken from a position of privilege. sometimes being offended isn't a choice, it's a gut reaction from a lifetime of being told, "you're less of a person because _____." yeah, some people have superhuman emotional strength and can deal with these things. most can't.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

thrives
2007-10-24 01:46 pm UTC (link)

I was told, through my entire childhood, that I was fat/ugly/stupid/a bitch/crazy/any number of things. I promise you, I'm in no position of privilege- it's just toughened my skin over the years. Anything they say is an opinion- and unless it's someone you know personally (and even if it is, sometimes), you probably shouldn't care. What you think of yourself matters more than what others think of you.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

arielhp
2007-10-24 02:22 am UTC (link)

e.d.: I have one friend who used to (and maybe still does) identify as anarchist. Every time i see her, she talks about calories, and how she doesn't want to get fat, and crap like that. She isn't unhealthily skinny, but she is skinnier than me, by far, and won't wear a bikini because she is too self conscious about her belly. I have no idea what to say to her, and her friends are more main stream, and probably don't see it as a problem, because she isn't sickly at all. I guess in "normal culture" her behavior isn't looked down upon at all, its encouraged.

I have another friend who is concerned about getting a belly, because "bellies don't look good on girls with small tits" WHAT THE FUCK! She is super radical, and anarchist feminist cirkus performer. I haven't talked to her about it at length, but more than once I have heard her talk about being worried about getting a belly. Most recently, because she broke her leg, and getting a lot of exercise was hard for her, since she was confined to a wheel chair for a while.

Generally when people who I consider my friends, or allies, or something, say things like that, I don't say shit. Mostly, I don't say anything because they are always skinnier than me. I'm pretty insecure, and I feel like talking to them about how they should love themselves, and not worry about gaining a healthy amount of weight, will just call attention to my fat. And if their fat is abominable, mine of such greater size must really be disgusting and unattractive. Its hard for me to think of myself as pretty and attractive as it is, so I ignore potential dialogs as to avoid any possible hit to my self esteem. I know, that that's wrong on so so so many levels, but its what happens.

My mom who is definitely a feminist, and a social justice activist, has been telling me, atleast since I was 9 or 10, that I was too fat and that I needed to exercise. Its finally stopped, but I think only because she knows she really needs to respect me if I'm going to have a relationship with her.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

sky_bluepink
2007-10-24 02:28 am UTC (link)

yeah, i think i know who you're taking about with the broken leg, it saddens me that she thinks of herself that way, eh...

i think theres only so much you can do, and i mean if you eat well and get enough excercise and you don't look like a runway model well you're probably nt supposed to, you know? accept what you can't change and learn to love it.

and i just wish that people realized that they're beautiful! seriously. i want to go around and somehow get every person to accept that and believe it forever.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

lotuspedals
2007-10-24 03:05 am UTC (link)

first topic: it's been a big matter for discussion in my community, because one of my housemates is currently inpatient for bulimia. she's getting home next week, and we're going to talk about bringing the issue out into the open. we have a radical mental health collective, so we have a basis for working with it, but nothing specifically for eating disorders. (i'll say more as a reply to

ainotoikomi's comment.)

second topic: my friend brought that up in a trans 101 workshop recently. how she has a friend who's a transwoman, and cringes every time she covers herself in makeup and does her hair perfectly. the way they responded to it was by pointing out that with trans issues, it's most important for the person to do whatever makes them comfortable. our society is so weird about gender issues that any little hint towards a different gender is picked up on easily, and discriminated against. if their biggest issue is just wanting to pass and be accepted, they might sacrifice other issues because of that. so it's not necessarily positive or negative, it's just a matter of that person doing what they need to in order to feel comfortable in their own skin.

that said, i think obviously genderqueer folks are really, really hot. i have a serious crush on the singer for your heart breaks. there's something really attractive to me about not being able to tell whether a person is biologically, or identifies as, a certain gender.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

sky_bluepink
2007-10-24 07:51 pm UTC (link)

thanks for responding, i like what you have to say. i've noticed the same within the anarchist community being sizist and not fully realizing the impact of using certain language. i also feel that the use of cosmetics isnt destructive in itself, except obviously in the production of cosmetics that are tested on animals and/or when people are dependent on changing their appearance to feel accepted.

i'm really sorry that you've dealt with that shit from your community, we have a long way to go.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2007-10-24 03:14 am UTC (link)

i know from personal experience, that eating disorders do not only come from the media but from inside a person as well. I know my small battle with an eating disorder, which thankfully was not nearly as bad as many, can from my own internal self-esteem issues, which i have dealt with and continue to deal with, not from me hoping to look like a model. For some eating disorders are not to improve their appearance, but as a from as self destruction, along the lines of self injury. I see the fight against eating disorders as a fight, not only against the media's standards but your self inflicted ones as well. A struggle to accept yourself as are you.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2007-10-24 03:16 am UTC (link)
	p.s. the reason i'm posting as anonymous is just because I'm not if I'm totally comfortable posting a confession like this in a public circuit (Reply to this) (Parent)

dickie_salt
2007-10-24 03:19 am UTC (link)

I believe in accepting yourself and your body and everything but there is nothing wrong with wanting to change your figure as long as you are healthy about it. Like it's not so bad when I have a little extra pudge but I don't really like it that much because when you are a dancer it's not as easy. Not because I feel fat but because I am heavier and it usually means I am just really out of shape so it's easy to lose my breath. When I dance a lot I get a lot more fit and I feel a lot healthier.

I think people should accept their bodies but if it's just because you don't want to do anything to change for the better because you are afraid or just lazy I don't think that is a good thing.

People aren't meant to be twigs yeah but people are not supposed to be obese either.

Also I think it's really silly to spell woman or women with a Y. I like to spell it wymen because it takes away the whole point of spelling it with a Y in the first place.

:)

(Reply to this)

everyatom
2007-10-24 03:39 am UTC (link)

1.I think eating disorders are about a LOT more than being thin, as you probably know, so there's more to take into account than media. There's the aspect of controlling and changing something, which is definitely something we can all relate to. Mine was about (wow this sounds bad) making someone jealous. But it was the ideals of the radical community that helped pull me out of it. I could explain further on AIM or email if you want.

2.I was thinking about this same thing the other day, but I never really got a solid answer out of myself.
I have to agree with lotuspedals on this one and say that everyone should just do what makes them comfortable, but maybe I'll come back to this question when I can form a somewhat eloquent response.

(Reply to this)

tavaszias
2007-10-24 03:55 am UTC (link)

Being that I'm not a member of the anarchist community I'm probably not qualified to answer any of these, but I'm going to anyway >p

Re: eating disorders- ARE NOT ALL PERPETUATED BY THE MEDIA. I say that as somebody who has been struggling with one since puberty. Many EDs aren't even rooted in the perceived need to align with an unrealistic ideal. If somebody in the anarchist community, or any countercultural group stigmatizes an an afflicted individual and accuses them of having bought into mainstream propaganda, etc, they're clearly a moron with scant understand of the disorder(s). An afflicted individual in such a group who refrains from being open about their disorder for fear of being stigmatized should perhaps try to open a dialogue. Even if said individual's disorder was precipitated by The Media.
Again I assure you, most legitimate, diagnosed EDs (as opposed to

proanorexia bullshit) are rooted in a need for control; cultural ideals are merely an enabler. Hence why binge eating is a more frequent disorder in nations like Mauritania, where the prevailing beauty ideal, that of extreme voluptuous is literally shoved down women's throats.

Re: transgendered aesthetics- the choice is entirely up to the individual and should be regarded as such. A dear friend of mine is MTF; she wears very little makeup and fairly androgynous garb but still passes. MTFs born with a more 'masculine' build and facial structure may feel forced to elicit the aid of cosmetics and 'female-identified' clothing in order pass at all for their own comfort, and in some cases, their safety. I cringe at the argument that MTFs who present as conventionally feminine are reinforcing the gender binary® and therefore counter-progressive: don't make something a political statement if it isn't. It's about comfort, not martyrdom.

In conclusion I probably sound like a moron and should not get on a soapbox at 6 am.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	tavaszias 2007-10-24 03:56 am UTC (link)
	* extreme voluptuousness (Reply to this) (Parent)

skeletal_trees
2007-10-24 04:21 am UTC (link)

I know a few other people have discussed the whole "eating disorders aren't just about appearance" but:
I have had problems where I would not eat because I felt ashamed to eat. Part of this shame has been induced by the outside sources, and I'm not talking about the media's predominant skinny celebrity aesthetic. I am talking about the reaction towards that, the whole "get fit or you are a lazy asshole" thing. The whole "if you so dare eat anything with partially hydrogenated oil or blahblahblah you are a disgusting american consumerist" thing. I would feel guilty about eating. In the past, I have been really upset and self-loathing and felt I didn't deserve to eat. There are people whose eating disorders stem from self-deprivation. Many times, I've gone without eating because I couldn't be bothered, A: because I was depressed B: because I was too busy C: I wanted to test myself (this has been a really stupid thing in the past).
I'm not part of an anarchist community, but I am a member of a community that leans towards those ideals.

As for using fashion as a means of defining gender, it would be a shame if a male-to-female felt the need to DEPEND on cosmetics and fashion as a means of gender definition (especially if the person in question's perception of womankind is defined by the media's standards of beauty) but I don't think the desire to use cosmetics and fashion to make oneself feel beautiful should be scorned or considered "plastic."

(Reply to this)

kurara
2007-10-24 04:54 pm UTC (link)

Obviously you know I have an eating disorder..
I am ready to talk about it if you want to ask questions... But here are my 2 cents on the topic :

I don't think it's 100% true that these disorders are necessarily perpetuated by the media. It's a complicated subject, but it really is a mental illness comparable to OCD, general anxiety disorder and depression. It might be possible that eating disorders are on the rise because of the media, but someone would have developed some kind of addiction or mental illness other than the eating disorder itself if they hadn't been in contact with it.. It's very likely. It's different for all individuals, but in my experience.. An eating disorder is about being distressed and not knowing how to deal with your feelings. It's about being depressed, wanting to die and wanting to live at the same time. It's about wanting to please everyone, being a perfectionist, being too hard on yourself and having self esteem issues. When you get down to the core, it's not really about how the person looks compared to models.

But yes, I can't deny that media plays a big part..
But not necessarily in the way that we think it does.
I think it's mostly the fact that it sexualizes women so much, and girls feel threatened by that.. They don't want their bodies to be objectified and they fear growing up and becoming what society views as a woman. At least, that's how it was for me. A huge part of my ED was about not wanting to grow up. It's very unconcious really because I know conciously that the way my body is shaped has nothing to do with my emotional age or even my physical age.. But still, I can't help it. The media portrays women either as lust objects, mothers who have to take care of children and who can be austere or bitches who will do anything to get power. I really dislike being associated with this..

The media does confuse our perception of bodies...
Because it shows a beauty standard that is very strange and improbable, and girls feel like they have to look exactly like this to be beautiful.

But also, don't forget that not feeling good in your body comes even before the media interferes. By example, when religion was really strong, girls would feel a lot of shame attached to their bodies when they were going through puberty. Also, if one has been sexually abused, they will hate their bodies. I don't remember liking the way I look and my body, ever.. And for a really long time, it had nothing to do with the media. I just didn't feel good inside my skin. Even now, I feel like my soul doesn't match my body. But I've felt this as long as I lived. And it wasn't always about my weight.. It was always different parts that I hated and obsesed on..

About food.
Lots of people talk about obesity nowadays, and I think that is a huge part of the problem. People in America, Canada and some parts of Europe are becoming completely obsessed with food and health. People are constantly talking about health and dieting and obesity, and I think that just makes everything worse by scaring people. Someone who has an eating disorder will tell you that these messages are always very triggering for them. My case is no different.. Always seeing shows about obesity, about what you should and shouldn't eat, classifications of good and bad foods.. This triggered me a lot.

It's true that people consume too much unnecessarily.. But everyone eats to their hunger. It's possible that someone just eats a lot.. In some parts of America it becomes problematic, but I think that obsessing over the appearance aspect by showing pictures of lots of obese people doesn't help.. And talking about diets, diet camps, etc.. Doesn't help!

Also, compulsive overeating is an eating disorder itself.

I hope it helped

(Reply to this) (Thread)

sky_bluepink
2007-10-24 07:38 pm UTC (link)

yeah. thanks for responding, i really hope that you're doing well. as for the media, i personally dont think that eating disorders are caused by the media, even though it often times contributes to an unnatainable image. moreso i was questioning whether support might not be given as strongly to people suffering from eating disorders within the anarchist community (which is anti-capitalist in nature) and that misconcieved notions could see people as falling weak to corperate media.

i think that all the hype about obesity is really sad. there are always going to be people who are thin, people who arent thin. and even people who i know who seem to be well educated and accepting openly criticize this nation as becoming "overweight" while someone in the room would be considered overweight! i think the whole concept of being overweight is really strange. if you excercise and eat well and you're still the shape you are, thats ok, even if the book says that someone who is for example, 16 years old, and 5 foot 4 should be a certain weight. obviously if someone is noticing a lot of health problems because of their weight they can do things to make themselves healthier and reduce the health risk, but the idea of obesity being an epidemic just strikes me as being very rude in regard to peoples body image.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

kurara
2007-10-25 11:40 pm UTC (link)

I got it..
I don't refer to myself as anarchist, but people definitely see me differently because I have an eating disorder and there's a big stereotype of girls with EDs as being really dumb and really weak-willed.. But actually, I know a lot of girls with really strong beliefs who have ED's..

I feel the same way ...
As I'm getting better, I realize how much society is obsessed with numbres

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	sky_bluepink 2007-10-26 01:09 am UTC (link)
	i know a lot of really smart and wonderful people who have eating disorders. i definately dont think you're weak, i actually think you're really strong for coping with it. im glad you're getting better. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

kurara
2007-10-26 02:03 am UTC (link)

thank you for your encouragements :)
actually reading your journal encourages me a lot, because you live in a world in which you're not concerned with these things.. you live, you eat, you love and you create all with the same energy and you don't obsess over anything..
it translates itself in your outward appearance too
you are really youthful and beautiful.

I think I'm more sensitive to pressures to be thin now that I have an eating disorder... but before I had one, I wasn't really affected by the size of models on advertisements, by example..

(Reply to this) (Parent)

radioterror
2007-10-29 08:46 pm UTC (link)

I can't speak english so... this is a song from a crust band about eating disorders:

Garmonbozia - Ugly

Ugly, worthless, broken
The mirror has spoken
Fattening the average,
Dying to be thin

Choking on fingers,
Choking on shame

Try to measure smaller just to measure up
Never fit the image that I keep inside
Try to measure smaller just to measure up
Never fit the mold that I keep in my mind
Try to measure smaller just to measure up
It¹s eating my body, it¹s eating my mind

Ugly, worthless, broken
The mirror has spoken
Hating my genes
For not fitting white standards

Skinny punks,
skinny pants,
big talk from skinny pants (X5)
I never had a chance

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	radioterror 2007-10-29 08:47 pm UTC (link)
	myspace: http://www.myspace.com/garmonbozia (Reply to this) (Parent)

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